Interesting conversation re:M16/T16 Nasp power mods

[Dom]

I have been spending more time on the Pistonheads TVR forums recently, so have only been here sporadically - but I had a conversation yesterday that I thought you guys would find very interesting... (although maybe about 10 years too late!)

The TVR Griffiths/Chimaeras run Rover V8 engines, which use Lucas 14CUX fuelling system, a close relative of the Lucas 14xxxx (knowledge runs out here!) system used on the M16 turbos.

The guy to speak to with regards to mapping RV8 engines, without a shadow of a doubt, is a chap called Mark Adams - he is like Dave Andrews is to K-series engines, or perhaps more accurately, Dave Walker is to Emerald... He is an older fellow; has been remapping RV8s for about 25 years - conservative in manner, and is not prone to over-exageration or "pub-talk" bragging.

So I am speaking to Mark Adams about remapping my Chimaera, and I mention the Coupe turbo to him (as I know about the relationship between RV8s-M16 turbos sharing ECUs) - and we speak about Rovers for about 10 minutes.

We get onto the subject of ignition mapping (as the RV8 pitifully only runs old-school dizzy) and Mark starts talking about Rovers conservative ignition mapping. Now we know this about turbos - and there very little we can do about it - but the really interesting this that he mentioned was about the NASPs...

He said the NASPs only ran 22degrees ignition advance - which was as conservative as the turbos mapping was - and being a long-stroke engine there was a lot more power to be had.

They had done some testing on an M16 NASP engine, and using more extreme mapping for the ignition advance (presumably with super unleaded?) in conjunction with replacing the exhaust manifold for a custom item - they had increased the power output by 30BHP.

I presume there would have been exhaust mods - but he said "only" a manifold - so I am thinking no cams, no raised compression etc etc.

I thought that was fairly impressive - he was talking about the M16 NASP, which was alledgedly 140BHP and taking it to 170bhp - upon which you could presumably then increase with cams, higher compression, big valve heads, DHTBs etc.

I know that people have tried (myself included) to tune these engines with little success - but it was really interesting to hear Marks results where we have failed.

OK, mapping is expensive and Mark is a mapping expert - but the ICON Race is available (if not omex etc) for ignition modifications, and I'm wondering if some of the "few remaining?) NASP owners might find this a useful alternative starting point for modification plans.

I'd be interested to know Rovertech's thoughts....

Dom

[MarkCoupe]

Certainly interesting. Proof of the pie is in the eating. If he does it, and it works for 20k miles, then we'll know it works and is relatively reliable.

[Dom]

This was many years ago - and I don't know if the car was even his. Very interesting to hear about though...

[MarkCoupe]

Difficulty is there literally only a handful of people modifying t/m 16 N/As in the country.

[IrishRover]

A very interesting and well written post, Dom.
How much are these aftermarket engine management chips and where can you buy them?

Proof of the pie is in the pudding.

And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so therefore if pudding is true, it implies pie is true and QED.
The corollary is that eating the pudding proves that the pie existed.

/Sorry, just going a bit mad Ted, don't mind me.

[MarkCoupe]

A very interesting and well written post, Dom.
How much are these aftermarket engine management chips and where can you buy them?

Proof of the pie is in the pudding.

And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so therefore if pudding is true, it implies pie is true and QED.
The corollary is that eating the pudding proves that the pie existed.

/Sorry, just going a bit mad Ted, don't mind me.

Yeah i did get a bit confused there

[Dom]

The Icon Race was a piggyback mappable chip made by Superchips - rather than one of their "off-the-shelf fixed maps". AFAIR it required mapping to suit the set-up and was therefore a more flexible solution - but I am unsure what sensors etc it used and how good it was.

Omex and equivalent aftermarket products are more advanced I am sure - but I think the real skill & cost comes down to the mapping on the RR...

However - the point is what *can* be achieved (apparently) if you know what you are doing, and are prepared to lay out a little cash & effort...

I appreciate that engines have moved on, and there are more gains to be made with other manufacturers offerings (flashable ECUs etc) - but it is a shame that this info was not available 7 years ago when more peeps were interesting in tuning the NASPs.

Would be interesting to see the low-down torque of an M16 NASP...

Dom

-------Edited for porr shpellingz------

[BrackenFox]

The TVR Griffiths/Chimaeras run Rover V8 engines, which use Lucas 14CUX fuelling system, a close relative of the Lucas 14xxxx (knowledge runs out here!) system used on the M16 turbos.

That would be the 14CUX then, it's exactly the same ECU as the V8.

In the 4 cylinder M16 turbo application in the Tickford 820, three of the cylinders in the ECU programming are left blank, and one is used for boost control. Ignition timing in the Tickford is controlled by a separate (and apparently fully programmable) Lucas ignition ECU.

The Lucas 14CUX system is apparently rather spiffy, but not many people know how to map it.

[Dom]

Mark would be your man - he is God in these circles...



(If you can get him on the phone...)

[maxmeabh]

Hello to you all. Should anyone still be following this thread I can add that Mark Adams performed his magic on my Morgan plus four in 2004. The M16 engine had 33000 miles and was improved only with an itg filter, stainless manifold and through exhaust with one box. From the factory they came with three boxes and an engine claimed to deliver 138bhp. Prior to the work it showed 133bhp and a pretty flat torque after 4000 rpm. Mark worked with Omex who designed a new fully programmable ems and transistorised ignition. The exhaust was fitted with an anti-knock sensor but that was all> The rest was down to Mark and Mike at Oxon Business Park in Shrewsbury. The result was extrordinary. 160 bhp,no flat spots, and very fast with a rev limiter at 6500- 5 secs to 60 is easy. Also very tractable at 1000 rpm. Beyond 4000 in fourth it is amazing . Mark said it had surprised him and he thought it a very sweet engine. I think I paid £2500 for the work and six tears later am still happy. I hope this is of interest. Ian>

[IrishRover]

Yes it is Ian - thanks for taking the time to post. It sounds like a great recommendation for Mark Adams for anyone who is looking to spend some money on tuning.

[gsi richard]

to be fair it is interesting but if i was in same situation ide have just gone and had a t16 dropped in and save the difference on the 2.5k

[maestrovdpt16]

That is a fair point, 2.5k on a m series nasp is a little keen! I was reading about the M series today. While you have to be careful what information you believe when it comes to the internet and especially wikipedia I will quote it here:

'Tickford also tuned the M-Series engine which was installed in 536 models of the Rover 820 in 1991. This was nicknamed the Tickford Turbo which was the turbocharged 800 it needed to have its power capped: it is believed that marketing had a say in the final power output of the M16 Turbo: "The request from marketing was to not hinder V6 sales therefore the performance should be similar to the 2.7-litre Honda V6 (177PS) hence the performance was limited to 180 PS deliberately.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_M-Series_engine

[maxmeabh]

Yes, I see what you mean: but I guess I was interested in what could be done and the engine was young. Chas Windridge at Mogsport does a T 16 conversion package which comes out at £3000 or so but as I said I'm happy with what I have. It really is quick, a friend of mine says quicker than his Plus Eight. My imagination runs to a plus eight transplant though, just for the feel of it. I haven't driven the v6 version yet. I think something must have been done to alter the gearing too on mine because it turns 2000 rpm at sixty ,a good ten mph faster than normal and theres nothing wrong with the speedometer. Ian.

[gsi richard]

3k!!!! ? blimey i bet you could get a que of guys of here to do it a lot less.

[Drew]

considering there's a M16 nasp already in there, £3k is ott for a turbo version.

Drew

[Punx0r]

Yeah, with scrapyard parts!

T16 turbo crate engine + new MEMS or aftermarket programmable ECU + mounts + exhaust = coolant & wiring system + garage labour rates. £3k really isn't bad at all for a proper job.

Anyway, it's always interesting to read about what can be done with a particular engine. In this case the M16 nasp, which few people bother with. A T16 turbo might offer more HP for less £, but the smoother, more progressive power of a nasp engine may be better suited. Then there's personal preference between nasp & turbo.

IIRC Tony Pond drove a car with a ~300bhp M16 nasp engine. I'd love to know what exactly went into that lump to acheive that kind of power.

[maxmeabh]

Hello again, I don't suppose for a minute I could be described as a hard driver and I had this kind of conversation with Mark; but over the years there have been a few instances where the mid range performance has startled me and a few others. Mark told me that after driving the car up and down the bypass whilst they played with the programming on a laptop, it would annihilate (his words) the opposition. Someone said he is conservative. Anyway one of the interesting examples of the engines improved torque is demonstrated thus: I can leave my long drive by starting off in second or third on a gentle gradient,move into fifth and climbing all the way for two miles, never do anything else until I have to stop at the junction. I live in France so you can do this kind of thing , the roads are empty. I wish I had the figures to support this but when we moved paperwork disappeared as it does sometimes. You'll just have to take my word for it. The point is that Mark has demonstrated what can be done with this engine and he told me that should I think I needed more power he could do it without changing anything else but that he wanted to do what he could without stressing the unit. He has phoned me a couple of times in the last six years to see how it was going. So far it hasn't missed a beat. Ian.

[Dom]

Yes - that was me.
Sounds like Mark - he isn't interested in pub talk or willy-waving; more a sensible no-nonsense approach, and lets his work do the talking.

Still trying to get him on the phone after my TVR mapping session was cancelled due to snow..!

Dom

[E_T_V]

I'm not sure if this is related or not, but worth of a mention here I feel

http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/blog.php?b=31

[maxmeabh]

Well I wish you luck with the phone-he is difficult to get. Just by the bye, he had a bright red, gleaming bog standard looking Ford Sierra with a V8 under the bonnet! Ian.

[big_g]

Got hold of some dyno data of one of the engines being developed for BTCC, built by Tony Pond racing with short stroke crank making 266hp @ 8500rpm.
This engine after the plug was pulled on the 220 touring car project ended up in a Rallycross Montego for a couple of years then was Rallied in a Montego up till just a few years ago.
With a bit of modification its now going into an 820.
The attatchment is a bit difficult to read but the important bit is 266.7hp @ 8500rpm, not bad for a normally aspirated M16.

http://www.forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?p=701983

Cheers chaps, I checked the early BTCC vids Ive got but mine dont go back far enough, any more I find out Ill post here.
Speaking to an engineer at a tuning company, he told me around that time Rover had about 5 normally aspirated M16 engines tuned and fitted to road going 220's, all very secret at the time, top people from Rover came and inspected the workshops before the work was authorised.
The engines developed 200hp and were standard looking road going cars given to Rover staff to use ! be interesting to know where these ended up too.
Thanks for the info so far.

Jim

very interesting stuff on that thread!

[Dom]

I remember being told about this, or another very similar engine - had the spec used.
The only thing I can remember is Omega pistons, but remember being very excited about the potential the engine held...

Dom

[Dom]

Hmmmm....

Just read the link - 280bhp 4WD coupes...?
V.Interesting... Why don't we know more about these interesting cars from our Rover roots..?!

Dom

[Drew]

Hmmmm....

Just read the link - 280bhp 4WD coupes...?
V.Interesting... Why don't we know more about these interesting cars from our Rover roots..?!

Dom

because it was bs. did you not see who posted it!

Drew

[_vitesse_]

Here is a bit about that engine. The following is the slide throttle intake with green injectors and throttle pot, its from the normally aspirated race BTTC spec engine in the early 90's, it used two Lucas systems which I cannot remember the name of but its the system used on the 6R4 Metros, seperate ingintion and fueling ECUs.
The print out reads max HP 266 @ 8500rpm. It also has some ignition info.
Not entirely relevent to this thread as it is highly modified but interesting.

[Dom]

Hmmmm....

Just read the link - 280bhp 4WD coupes...?
V.Interesting... Why don't we know more about these interesting cars from our Rover roots..?!

Dom

because it was bs. did you not see who posted it!

Drew

Of course Drew, but I don't always discount things just based on who said it...
Would not be the first time new info has come around via unlikely routes...


@ _vitesse_
Are they yours..?!

Might it be the 14CUX ECUs (as per the Tickford Turbos and Rover V8's)..?

Dom

[_vitesse_]

@ _vitesse_
Are they yours..?!

Might it be the 14CUX ECUs (as per the Tickford Turbos and Rover V8's)..?

Dom

I cant find any pictures of them but I did find these numbers from the labels

Lucas Engine management
Lucas Micos limited
Model no. AU01014
and
Lucas Hall effect ignition system

I sold them to a motorbike enthusiast who wanted to experiment with them !

The engine is partially rebuilt, I just have not had time to finish it.

[lil_red_roadster]

A bit of a late post...but that's me all over...

I have a Marlin Roadster which I recently dropped a T16 nasp into, along with an Emerald ECU...this is a completely stock engine apart from the ECU, catless exhaust & K&N (but with a turbo manifold for space reasons). When it was mapped we saw 160bhp/160lb-ft at 5400rpm...which came as a very pleasant surprise I can say...and a considerable improvement over the preceding boat-anchor B series...! Smooth, progressive and rather fast given the 750kg weight.

Really does make you wonder what the nasp will do with a trick exhaust, ITB's and fast-road cam profiles.

[maxmeabh]

I think this just shows what can be done for a useable road car nasp. I went back to read Dom's original post and I think that he might be referring to my car because I have a feeling that Mark Adams had not done an M16 before but felt it was possible once he had had mine running. The thirty bhp gain is what he achieved but the exhaust had already been changed as had the filter (replaced with itg) so it must have been down to ignition and the bespoke Omex. Six years on and it's going well. all the best.

[maxmeabh]

Oh, and mine is..............!

[lil_red_roadster]

Ha...I knew the sig would catch me out sometime..! It's amazing how many people see the Marlin and say "Is it a Morgan Mister?"...

I can only speak for the T16 but share your sentiments around 4th gear. The power/torque curve is very interesting...peak torque occurs at about 2800rpm then tails off before peaking again at full power. Power curve is a nice climb up to 3500, then flattens a little around cruise before going almost vertical over 4k. So you can be nice and sensible...then floor it and it vertigo kicks in...almost like a turbo without the extra plumbing and insurance premium...

Best thing I ever did...

[Punx0r]

Interesting. 5400rpm seems a little low for peak power. AFAIK redline on the T16 is the same as the turbo: 6750rpm.

[lil_red_roadster]

Must admit I thought the nasp red-lined at 6500 with peak power (factory-spec) of 138bhp at 6000rpm (power figs from aronline)...happy to be corrected on that though.

For the fun-factor I'll happily take the extra 22 horses 600 revs earlier...especially as it's somewhat noisy at those revs without a roof...!

[Punx0r]

Ah, but imagine if you could keep the torque up at higher revs