Don't you just hate it when...

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:47 pm

The Haynes manual that you've bought to help you fix a problem only causes more..

For instance I began to process of replacing the head gasket on my polo today and about an hour in i discovered that lots of the instructions were very vague, diagrams were missing (e.g. see fig 1.4 for the order to tighten the head bolts.... flick back a couple of pages and fig 1.4 was a picture of a guy pouring oil into the filler.. theres no diagram in the WHOLE book!)

also some/most of the instructions and pictures are vague and are for other engines in the range and things are different...

Seeing as im a relative novice ive now got to cut the timing cover in half to get the head off (don't fancy risking removing the cam pulley and messing the job up even more) Thinking the coolant system was fully drained I lifted up the head and water poured out filling the bores and generally taking a leak everywhere....

Oh and since the description of how to loosen the water-pump/timing belt tensioner was wrong ive now got to try and refit a fully tensioned timing belt...

something tells me this is another car thats destined for the scrapyard

[/rant over]

alexf2828 · Post by **alexf2828** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:30 pm

I wouldn't have cut the timing cover in half,they are sometimes hard to get hold of,yes haynes manuals are crap and dont give u the proper information,had that experience b4.Best way is to look on net,someone will have done it with photos,for my 620ti someone on here has full photos of a HG change which gives u a good idea of how its done-better than haynes by a long shot

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:39 pm

alexf2828 wrote:I wouldn't have cut the timing cover in half,they are sometimes hard to get hold of

I dont intend to get a new one.. i'm going to remove it completely as it just gets in the way and I can't see me ever wanting to put my hand in while the engine is running :wink:

alexf2828 · Post by **alexf2828** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:48 pm

thats ok so long as something doesnt drop in there and makes it jump a tooth,a stone from the road for example

george_chick · Post by **george_chick** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:33 pm

OFFS.

The cam pulley is connected to the cam which is part of the head, remove head from the car and the timing will obviously not be the same.

How in fecks name does cutting the cover off improve anything?, if you've the tool to remove something properly then use it.

That belt is probably made from different components, due to the environment its expected to live in.
It's expected to live behind a cover, staying relatively dry, compared to the other belts that run outside of any covers.

Universal removal and refitting order for head bolts
http://www.rt2468abcd.r8technology.co.uk/viewtopi ... light=head
Just substitute the correct torque settings.

Did you mark the crank and cam pulley's before you removed the head?

I'm guessing you're one of those saucepans you see down the scrappys removing relays, wheels, switches (everything basically) with a lump hammer and 16" screwdriver.

fluke · Post by **fluke** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:36 pm

george_chick · Post by **george_chick** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:50 pm

Ain't funny mate, whenever you see door cards with edges ripped off, but with all the internals intact, it'll be one of this lot.
They leave a complete dogs breakfast in their wake, 'how to remove screws, with a knife and fork'

fluke · Post by **fluke** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:52 pm

I know mate.

MGJohn · Post by **MGJohn** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:05 pm

I'm with George on this one..... some folks don't got no class and think nothing of tearing apart some fine stuff for no apparent reason apart from being lazy!

Just about to remove a spotless silver leaf bonnet from a breaker Montego when some alien ponce decides to take a short cut over it to his mates a few car rows away thus putting shallow dents in it! I got out of the car and spoke (LOUDLY) to him. From his swarthy appearance and lack of English, I guess he was fresh over the fences at Dover with fistfulls of tax payers' handouts in his pockets.... his 'mates' were communicating in some alien tongue which I could not identify and I was so mad I went over and asked how they would feel if I started jumping all over the stuff they were working on! Clueless ponce!

On second thoughts, not a wise move on my part as outnumbered by some from cultures with shall we say different values when it comes to the law and indeed the value of life! ... But, I did have a 500 mill breaker bar in my hand ... even so....

Some folks don't got no class!!!!

... and why do so many turn up so ill equipped - I'll help anyone but turning up with a bent hairclip and a broken screwdriver when after an alternator or whatever is not on - then it's "Oy mate - have you got a 13mm or phillips or ... " never even a polite request let alone a "please" .... Happens almost every visit - never understand all that malarkey. However, I do help when the request is reasonable or polite.... otherwise - "No don't got one of them M8" .... lying through me teeth - fair do done piff (Olde English) me orf so it do....

george_chick · Post by **george_chick** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:19 pm

Anyway now that we've had our contribution from the Daily Mail, back to
the problem.

Answer the question and how far have you got with the job?

radddogg · Post by **radddogg** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:27 pm

george_chick wrote:Anyway now that we've had our contribution from the Daily Mail, back to
the problem.

Answer the question and how far have you got with the job?

I think he's finished it more or less now. I have to confess to doing the same thing once before, but in my defence it was 1830 on a friday night and I needed to get to newquay that night. You try removing a crankshaft pulley with a 3/8 ratchet. The reason I had to change it then was that the alternator bolt had fallen out and the alternator bracket had worn through the case and cut the cambelt into two separate belts

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:18 am

george_chick wrote:OFFS.

The cam pulley is connected to the cam which is part of the head, remove head from the car and the timing will obviously not be the same.

How in fecks name does cutting the cover off improve anything?, if you've the tool to remove something properly then use it.

That belt is probably made from different components, due to the environment its expected to live in.
It's expected to live behind a cover, staying relatively dry, compared to the other belts that run outside of any covers.

Universal removal and refitting order for head bolts
http://www.rt2468abcd.r8technology.co.uk/viewtopi ... light=head
Just substitute the correct torque settings.

Did you mark the crank and cam pulley's before you removed the head?

I'm guessing you're one of those saucepans you see down the scrappys removing relays, wheels, switches (everything basically) with a lump hammer and 16" screwdriver.

Come on thats a bit harsh... the reason I had to cut the timing cover in half was that the water pump has been in the same position for 16 years and didnt want to budge making removing it impossible for a rank amateur like myself

In the end i cut the cover between two bolts that hold it down so I have kept the cover in place and secured..

Both the cam sprocket and crank pulley TDC points were marked from the factory so there wasnt a problem there although the timing is slightly out (by calculation between 1/2 a degree and 1 degree) as I couldnt release the tension as the water pump is well and truely stuck...

so to answer your question.. yes the car runs (albeit a bit lumpy)

I dont claim to be a master mechanic.. I'm 20 and trying to learn something new so theres no need to bite my head off just because I don't know everything about taking engines to bits... at least I had a go instead of giving up and getting a garage to fix it..

Now, If you have anything useful to add I have a question.. If I remove the Cam sprocket, how do I get it to go back in exactly the same place I removed it from? do I need to mark the wheel and the shaft or is there only one way it can go back on?

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:23 am

So the engine has a 16 year old cam belt on it?

Usually cam wheels have a lug-hole which locates onto a dowel on the end of the camshaft.

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:18 pm

Martin wrote:So the engine has a 16 year old cam belt on it?

oops my bad. Good point.. no the cambelt was renewed about 10k ago.. but the water pump mounting is stuck fast

Martin wrote:Usually cam wheels have a lug-hole which locates onto a dowel on the end of the camshaft.

Thanks for the info

Im now off to try and fix my car. There is no need to give me a hard time.. after all no-one was born with a profound knowledge of the workings of an internal combustion engine..

We all have to start somewhere..

Oh, and i'll have you know that my Scrapyard Etiquette is excellent.. nothing annoys me more than when you find what you are looking for only to discover it has been damaged by some dingbat removing some other part

george_chick · Post by **george_chick** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:08 pm

Read what you wrote and tell me if your solution to the problem presented makes any sense.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:19 pm

george_chick wrote:Read what you wrote and tell me if your solution to the problem presented makes any sense.

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:08 pm

george:- Just to spell it out for you, the original problem was that the head gasket was blown..

I bought a haynes manual to attempt the job myself which then caused more problems as the diagrams and descriptions were incorrect. Hence the tension in the belt problem (didnt show where the water pump is bolted on let alone what to do if it is stuck fast)

The other problem, which is the one I assume you are talking about, is the timing cover.. again, the haynes manual's descriptionof how to remove it was complete tosh and it was the only thing stopping the head from being removed..

In a moment of inspiration i cut it in half... if this makes me a retard then so be it.

Bottom line is the car is worth sod all but I need transport.. this is why I decided to cut the timing cover in half as opposed to removing the cam sprocket and risking making a costly mistake..

Im not sure what "solution" you are refering to but if you mean the bit about asking about removing the cam sprocket then that was for future reference.. the car runs now and I'm now onto trying to free the water pump so i can make it run properly..

Are you argumentative for the sake of it or have you skipped your afternoon nap today?

george_chick · Post by **george_chick** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:07 pm

You still persist in a p poor description of the problem.

Instead of going off half cocked like a frustrated saucepan, if you'd given a proper description of the problem I or others could have asked elsewhere about the proper procedure.

Do whatever the feck you like, I care not a jot.

The End.

xr4x4 · Post by **xr4x4** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:21 pm

LOL...

good old george...

where would we be without u....

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:12 pm

In a last ditch attempt to recoup some self esteem ive knocked up a diagram so I hope this is a better explanation...

As you can see the timing cover has a hole for the end of the Camshaft to poke through then the Cam sprocket goes on..

to even bend the cover out of the way you need to remove the Cam sprocket and didn't have confidence in my abilites not to chupa chup the whole thing up...

My knowledge is pretty basic and I was worried that if i were to undo the nut holding the Camsprocket on the camshaft, the cam may turn and the valves might hit the pistons and cause damage.. I dont know if this would happen or not

this is why i chose to cut the timing cover (the dotted red line) so I could simply lift off the head.. The Green dots are the bolts which hold the timing cover down.. I cut between them so the timing cover is still secure..

Hope this makes more sense... There are obviously better ways of doing this but, due mostly to inexperience, i chose this way

P.S. thanks MGJohn.. I replaced the master cylinder today and you were right.. problem cured

radddogg · Post by **radddogg** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:24 pm

I see what you've done. Don't worry about it, it's your car, if it lord our father up it's your problem.

xr4x4 · Post by **xr4x4** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:45 pm

about the rear belt cover......

you should beable the remove the head with the upper rear cover still on the head.. AFAIK its not one piece

there may of been a bolt though the rear cover bolted onto the block.

quite a way down and hard to get to...at the rear i think. with this bolt removed the whole thing should of come off together.

xr4x4 · Post by **xr4x4** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:48 pm

...

hold on..what car is this?

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:54 pm

xr4x4 wrote:...

hold on..what car is this?

1988 1.0ltr Polo

Hold on.. this isnt a volkswagen forum! :oops:

xr4x4 · Post by **xr4x4** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:58 pm

Mule wrote:
xr4x4 wrote:...

hold on..what car is this?

1988 1.0ltr Polo

Hold on.. this isnt a volkswagen forum!

trollied if i know then..

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:03 pm

xr4x4 wrote:
Mule wrote:
xr4x4 wrote:...

hold on..what car is this?

1988 1.0ltr Polo

Hold on.. this isnt a volkswagen forum!

trollied if i know then..

This thread was only supposed to be a rant about my bad experience with haynes manuals.. instead it has escalated to this

alexf2828 · Post by **alexf2828** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:30 pm

the main thing is to mark the position of the camwheel up on cover or something when engine is at TDC compression stroke BEFORE u take belt off/anything else,then u know it will go back together with the right cam/valve timing.Maybe a bit late for this now,hope u havent moved cam/hope there is something else to line it up to

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:35 pm

alexf2828 wrote:the main thing is to mark the position of the camwheel up on cover or something when engine is at TDC compression stroke BEFORE u take belt off/anything else,then u know it will go back together with the right cam/valve timing.Maybe a bit late for this now,hope u havent moved cam/hope there is something else to line it up to

You've only skim read the previous posts, havent you :wink:

alexf2828 · Post by **alexf2828** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:40 am

yeah probably,guilty of cutting a timing belt cover in half in my past,not to worry gud luck with it glad it seems to run anyway!

Mule · Post by **Mule** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:03 pm

cheers..

after a bit more fiddling I discovered that I had got the timing right (me, getting something right? makes a change :roll:

) and the misfiring problem was caused by a *dickie* distributor.. brakes now bled and car running better than before... mission accomplished

Now just the carb to change for one off a later model and i might just have a half decent little run-around

alexf2828 · Post by **alexf2828** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:49 pm

well done,lets hope it lasts u for a bit and gets through another MOT