are k series engines really that unreliable?

[j220 gti]

now im picking up a rover 45 X reg on tuesday... now its a 1.4 k series. as the norm,

needs gearbox chaning and engine is lsmoking a bit.

now, most of my mates, and me myself have had huge problems when it comes to k series regarding head gaskets etc.

but if i take the head off, send it to get skimmed and pressure tested , and then fit a new hg with new stretch bolts.

how long should it last with my VERY heavy foot so long as its warmed up and cooled down as i do with all my cars anyway? a love these little revvy engines

[vi turbo]

just because you drive heavy footed dont mean the head gasket will just go

when i had mt vvc metro back in 2001-2002 i drove like a nut everywhere and covered 20-25k miles without a problem at all
make sure you use quality parts not cheapo sshhiitt


john

[Big__P]

i drove my 2004 rover 25 for about 20k miles in a year with a heavy right foot and that went bang - 1.4 k-series

[MGJohn]

Some are, like all cars can be. Quite a lot are unreliable but not as unreliable as their owners, or previous owners can be when it comes to looking after their cars. Paying professionals to look after any cars is not a 100% guarantee of a job well done either.

A full service history means little if that servicing has not been done correctly, particulrly where coolant change or draining is involved..

Many so called cylinder head gasket 'failures' on K-series engined cars follow soon after dealership servicing. If the coolant is changed as recommended by all manufacturers, if then the system is not bled correctly in the sophisticated little K-series, particularly on cars asked to frequently punch above their weight, then a 'failure' can occur soon afterwards.

It is no coincidence that many failures occur soon after a professional service. Here I speak from experience, not of my own K-series cars, but some of those owned by other drivers I know.....

My son has fitted a 1.8 and 1.8 VVC engines to his project Metro. On both occasions, he found that the temperature gauge needle would rise to normal on warm up but soon after continue to rise towards the red. On both occasion he asked me to check and blled the cooling system which I did. Appeared to work well but, after a few hundred miles, the coolant would boil over and lots of coolant escaping. Bled it again and again all was well for a few hundred miles, then coolant boliing over again. With both those engines that happened.

A little while afterwards, my son discovered a small steady leak from one of steel tubes in the cooling system. Easy to overlook. Not much but, after a while steady loss of coolant there and thus the loss of the all important coolant system pressure meant the coolant would boil up prematurely. The higher operating pressure in the normal healthy system enables the coolant to boil at a much higher temperature than in an unpressurised system. In a healthy system that higher temperature is not reached.

He replaced the offending tube, bled the system as before ( lots of squeezing of both top and bottom rad hoses always helps reduce the chances of air pockets ) and guess what.... car has done several 1000 miles since then with no coolant problems. and the fan comes on when it should which it did not di before no doubt because of the incorrect pressure in a leaky system, even an ever so slight leak like this hard to locate one was.

These things can take time to locate and get right. My son uses a 620ti for his work and he clocks up a high mileage. Car started losing coolant so much so he would take a large bottle of water with him each day for his work, just in case. We replaced the water pump which was well worn ( car had 150,000 miles at time ) and allowed coolant to escape. This improved thing enormously but, still a steady but much reduced progressive loss of coolant. A real puzzle because every thing checked out ~ no leaks, big or small. So where was his car's coolant going. We were stumped. could only be one suspect left to check ~ cylinder head gasket allowing coolant to escape into the combustion chambers....Hope not.

A little later, working on the car, he spotted the tell tale stain signs of coolant loss from one of the core plugs behind the engine below the induction manifold assembly so very difficult to check. It was only a slight trickle but, over 100s of miles there comes a point when there is insufficient coolant in the system which leads to overheating and all sorts of problems if that overheating is severe.

There's always a reason for these things. Trick is identifying them. Not always easy on any car even in the best equipped and run workshops.
.

[Stevo135+]

I think if you carry out regular and possibly more frequent than advised maintainence on the K-16 engines that they can be reliable. Because they are soft alloy construction with steel liners and sandwich construction, then i think that careful warming and cooling is required. My TF135 used to need 15-20mins to get the oil temp up to 80-90deg, after that it was revved hard and performed really well. It also used to feel faster the warmer it got for some reason?

apart from the possible thermal shock issues, that careful warming and cooling can help avoid, the the other thing that kill's K-series engines is any degree of coolant loss. If you check it every week or more if your doing lots of miles then thats a good plan. TBH if i had another K-series car then id fit a low coolant warning light/buzzer for peace of mind. I'd also reccomend annual coolant flushing and changes, and avoid topping up with just water.

Lastly they are only as good as they are built, and some engines seem to be much better than others. If HGF occurs there is quite a lot of checks and issues that could need to be improved and corrected, assuming that the head and block are not badly damaged. Fit all the uprated parts and done properly with attention paid to getting everything right, then IMO you will have a far stronger and more reliable engine than it was when it left Longbridge.

[Null_Byte]

but if i take the head off, send it to get skimmed and pressure tested , and then fit a new hg with new stretch bolts.

Be careful when skimming them, the less you take off the better. Check to see if the head has overheated, if it has then it will have become soft and will fail again and again.

There is much you can do to the K to improve reliability, of course the most important thing is maintaining it! Things like remote stat, LR ladder, better HG all help, if done properly with care.

[matt077]

i drove both my old 92 214 and my 98 400 like a knob, the only things what went wrong was on my 214 which was a set of drive shafts and a gearbox

i have had a few more problems with my t series but i dont care,lol

[stefaclese]

Every single K powered car I've replaced the HG on (incidentally, all Landrover MLS gaskets) hasn't had a single HG related issue since and all are still going strong. The drivers range from an elderly lady who just makes short (literally a few miles) journeys to my road-rage Mother who has killed a number of engines previously and seems to prefer the noisey pedal to the squeely one.

My 1.6 K gave me around 25,000 trouble free miles between replacing the HG and pulling it apart for the VVC conversion (not bad for my first attempt at anything car related even if I do say so myself!), and since the VVC conversion at the very start of the year (and around 7,000 miles) again I've not had any issue at all with the engine.

So in my experience, K's can be just as reliable as any other engine, and just as unreliable as any other engine. As is said over and over again, a lot of problems with K's are down to poor (or indeed non-existant) maintenance/repairs/servicing, something which you don't really want to risk on an engine not exactly renowned for its strength (rightly or wrongly).

[618ireland]

I hope not, I'm going to look at a 1.6K coupe after work. If I get her she will be my first K series powered Rover in 4 years or so. HG was done in January, new clutch last month.

[BrackenFox]

Bizarrely, I've never had a single problem with any of the K series engined cars I've had, but loads of problems with the T16 ones, including two head gasket failures.

[southside]

I've owned around 15 k-series engined cars now and only had 2 HG's go. Alot of the time as said its due to something else that causes the HG's to go. Like leaking waterpumps which is quite common on k and t-series engines.

[j220 gti]

cheers everyone , looks like the k series is staying in it then

vvc conversion ay ?... hrrm....

[mg-richard]

i dont think they are that unreliable, us in the know can fix them for pennies

there is only really one thing that goes wrong, you can usually tell when its going to happen.
or make a good guess based on history/mileage etc

why not just pull the head inspect it all and change it when you buy the car
or buy a non runner and fix it properly

[j220 gti]

as far as i can tell , there no sign of overheating at all... and looks like its only now starting to go, should i get the head skimmed, OR can i just clean the head and block and fit a mls head gasket ? change water pump etc and check rad and thermostat change at same time

[stefaclese]

If there are any deep indentations of the fire rings in to the face of the head then you'll almost certainly be in need of a skim. To check for certain you need an engineers rule and some feeler gauges.

I got away without skimming the head on my car but mine was in the early stages of HGF and hadn't overheated at all, and the face of the head was good too, however all the other K's I've done have overheated at some point and required a skim.

[j220 gti]

If there are any deep indentations of the fire rings in to the face of the head then you'll almost certainly be in need of a skim. To check for certain you need an engineers rule and some feeler gauges.

I got away without skimming the head on my car but mine was in the early stages of HGF and hadn't overheated at all, and the face of the head was good too, however all the other K's I've done have overheated at some point and required a skim.

ok cheers, i get the car tomorow, so will have a proper look , i only saw the car for a second, and havent heard it run, however its off the missis's uncle at a price too cheep to refuse, an hes never lied about the condition/running of a car yet an hes ma mot man too so atleast i havent bought it blind off a stranger !

[Sheaf]

I've had two cousins who've had 416s with HG failure.
I work with 3 people who have/have had 216 bubbles, 2 have had head gasket failure (one twice), the other was suffering from a bad temperature problem last I heard.

I know two more people who have had 200s with head gasket failure.

I think I only know of 3 rovers owned by people I know that have not had head gasket failure, one of which was crashed, and one broke in some other way (cant remember how) and was scrapped.

I'm told that they're reliable when looked after, but so many people I know have had issues I find it hard to believe that they ALL mistreated their cars.

[Roboscot]

Between myself, my mum and my brother we have owned 5 k-series engined rovers since 1991 and not a single HG problem. I had my 214 for 4 years and dont think i ever even opened the bonnet!

[Punx0r]

I believe the official advice is:

Don't skim the head unless absolutely necessary - it's face hardened.

If the head has gone soft (fire rind indentations), then it's technically scrap, and may cause HGF if reused.

In my, admitedly limited, experience they can be skimmed and reused with success.

Check the liner heights: ideally you want 4-5 thou on each. If so, use the MLS gasket for best results. If they're uneven, or significantly less, use the BW750 composite gasket. If they're less than 0 thou then it's never going to work reliably.

[stefaclese]

If the head has gone soft (fire rind indentations), then it's technically scrap, and may cause HGF if reused.

Not necessarily, depends on the severity of the indentations. I've got a VVC head which was skimmed beyond its limits (caught the edges of the valves ) and the fire ring indentations were still there, but I've also had a non-VVC head where the indentations went with a skim and haven't had any issues since.

Regarding the face-hardening, thats part of the point of the shim provided with the Landy MLS gasket - keeps the c/r in check after a skim and also acts as a protective layer to the mating face of the cylinder head.

[matt077]

I had my 214 for 4 years and dont think i ever even opened the bonnet!

what about oil and water?

[618ireland]

The 216 I agreed to buy last night had HG failure a few weeks after the car bought it, warped head etc apparently. He got a 2nd hand engine from a well known breakers and had that put in, that one went too. He had it repaired by a reputable garage and now she's mine, fingers crossed

[stefaclese]

The 216 I agreed to buy last night had HG failure a few weeks after the car bought it, warped head etc apparently. He got a 2nd hand engine from a well known breakers and had that put in, that one went too. He had it repaired by a reputable garage and now she's mine, fingers crossed

Well if you have any issues, I'm sure Baz can be persuaded to sort it out for you, I'd imagine he's probably worked on half the K's on the island

[bgunn]

If the head has gone soft (fire rind indentations), then it's technically scrap, and may cause HGF if reused.

Not necessarily, depends on the severity of the indentations. I've got a VVC head which was skimmed beyond its limits (caught the edges of the valves ) and the fire ring indentations were still there, but I've also had a non-VVC head where the indentations went with a skim and haven't had any issues since.

Regarding the face-hardening, thats part of the point of the shim provided with the Landy MLS gasket - keeps the c/r in check after a skim and also acts as a protective layer to the mating face of the cylinder head.

Just because you skim the indentations away doesn't mean the head surface hasn't gone soft. This is the point, the mechanism that means the liners crush into the head is that the head gets too soft, loses its surface hardness and yields. IF the head has got to this point, skimming it flat will cure nothing, as it is too soft to maintain the liner/fire ring pressure for any length of time.

I'm not saying it won't work - but you can't guarantee that skimming a dented head will cure the problem satisfactorily, for any length of time..

The shim isn't actually designed to account for a softened head, it's to allow the fire ring of the head gasket to roll over correctly as the head is torqued down, and to attempt to breach any porosity voids that were common on the later (post 2000) heads.

Brian.

[Roboscot]

I had my 214 for 4 years and dont think i ever even opened the bonnet!

what about oil and water?

There may have been some in there, I never checked

My point was that it never gave me a problem despite me completely ignoring the simplest maintenance... Needless to say I have learned to respect my cars a bit better now

[Scott]

that said, my old boss had a 214 wedge, and he said he never did anything on it for 4 years since he was given it, and it eventually had HG failure, but said it was best car he had owned to date lol, only needing 1 cv boot in 4 years...

i guess its luck of the draw with any car, but the inherent design problems means its going to happen at some point or another.

i had HGF on my metro gti, but in an odd way, the elastomer gave way on the corner, and shot a jet of coolant 3 foot out the front of the car, between the tiniest of gaps between the headlight and grill lol.

[618ireland]

My 214SEi I bought in 2001 as a 6 year old with 39K miles on her was driven for the next 6 years and did 100K miles for me with no HG failure, gearbox went though. And the water pump leaked so I had to keep an eye on the coolant level for a few months. I did love the K series though.

[Stealth213S]

A full service history means little if that servicing has not been done correctly, particulrly where coolant change or draining is involved..

Many so called cylinder head gasket 'failures' on K-series engined cars follow soon after dealership servicing. If the coolant is changed as recommended by all manufacturers, if then the system is not bled correctly in the sophisticated little K-series, particularly on cars asked to frequently punch above their weight, then a 'failure' can occur soon afterwards.

It is no coincidence that many failures occur soon after a professional service. Here I speak from experience, not of my own K-series cars, but some of those owned by other drivers I know.....

I've changed the coolant on a few K-series and noticed one thing recurring. The little valve in the inlet manifold with the tiny ball bearing blocks up. It doesn't become a problem until the coolant is disturbed and the system needs bleeding.
With it blocked it can be a pain to bleed and even when it seems to be bled properly it might not be, but there could be an air bubble at the top of the head cavity, ready to cause problems the first time the car really gets warmed up or the air moves and causes an air lock.

I'd go as far as saying that the symptoms of this valve being blocked are more likely to be taken as HGF by a lazy mechanic, thats if the air bubble in the head hasn't already caused HGF by this point.

When I've cleared out these valves and re-filled the coolant I've never had one that hasn't bled perfectly straight off.

Why do these valves block up? Simple, the cheap steel radiators Rover used until the turn of the millenium were crap and rotted, this valve is the most vulnerable place on the engine.

[MGJohn]

A full service history means little if that servicing has not been done correctly, particulrly where coolant change or draining is involved..

Many so called cylinder head gasket 'failures' on K-series engined cars follow soon after dealership servicing. If the coolant is changed as recommended by all manufacturers, if then the system is not bled correctly in the sophisticated little K-series, particularly on cars asked to frequently punch above their weight, then a 'failure' can occur soon afterwards.

It is no coincidence that many failures occur soon after a professional service. Here I speak from experience, not of my own K-series cars, but some of those owned by other drivers I know.....

I've changed the coolant on a few K-series and noticed one thing recurring. The little valve in the inlet manifold with the tiny ball bearing blocks up. It doesn't become a problem until the coolant is disturbed and the system needs bleeding.
With it blocked it can be a pain to bleed and even when it seems to be bled properly it might not be, but there could be an air bubble at the top of the head cavity, ready to cause problems the first time the car really gets warmed up or the air moves and causes an air lock.

I'd go as far as saying that the symptoms of this valve being blocked are more likely to be taken as HGF by a lazy mechanic, thats if the air bubble in the head hasn't already caused HGF by this point.

When I've cleared out these valves and re-filled the coolant I've never had one that hasn't bled perfectly straight off.

Why do these valves block up? Simple, the cheap steel radiators Rover used until the turn of the millenium were crap and rotted, this valve is the most vulnerable place on the engine.

Nice to be reminded of that.

Ah yes, the JIGGLE VALVE ~ good you should mention that Stealth213S . Crud built up especially following coolant oil mix, will effectively block or severely restrict the operation of that little valve. Always wise to give that a thorough clean even occasionally if no heating/coolant bleeding problems as it will improve circulation within the system.

[evolotion]

know your not supposed too, but i jsut pop that valve out and leave it out, never seen any advarse effects tbo. done it on many k-series now.